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Just A Few Things to Consider...

Permalink 09/24/11 01:39, by OGRE / (Jeff), Categories: Welcome, News, Background, In real life, On the web, History, Politics, G-20, Strange_News, Stimulus Spending, U.S. Economy

I recently had an interesting conversation with a few people commenting on a BBC article (I'm jefff1979). We were discussing the riots in the UK. I posted a link to a Max Hastings article. It's at the end of the exchange that things get creepy.

You might find this enlightening.

Comment number 400.
jefff1979
26 Minutes ago

I agree with an article by Max Hastings. The social system has created a large underclass of people who show contempt for any form of authority while simultaneously biting the hand that feeds them. The rioters are the product of having all of the basic needs of life provided them without any need of returning the favor. A lot of the rioters are probably just bored...

Comment number 401.
jefff1979
22 Minutes ago

Check out Max's article...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

Comment number 402.
Richard
17 Minutes ago

"jefff1979

I agree with an article by Max Hastings. The social system has created a large underclass of people who show contempt for any form of authority while simultaneously biting the hand that feeds them. "

I think that's far too simplistic a view. As a member of that underclass (created by politicians) in economic terms, I can understand the frustrations (but not condone their actions).

Comment number 403.
jefff1979
12 Minutes ago

Richard:

Of course I didn't mean that everyone thinks or acts that way, but it's understandable how one becomes that way in those circumstances.

Some people have the convictions to do what is right, some people don't. Still some people actually don't have any concept of right and wrong because they have been without guidance their whole lives.

Comment number 404.
jefff1979
5 Minutes ago

Richard:

Without a time machine; the government can't fix these sorts of social problems. The politicians' lack of foresight is indeed the reason these economic positions exist in the first place. They can; however, start to demand more from those who live on the government's dole.

When people are provided for without demand you can't expect them to prescribe to your rules. Laws allow for this.

Comment number 405.
Chemical-Mix
4 Minutes ago

@401.jefff1979
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

The problem with the article is that, other than classroom discipline, he hasn't given any real solutions. Also, the effects he describes are actually symptoms of a root cause(s) he fails to discuss. Why are youth so disconnected from the national syllabus? Is it bland/unengaging? Why the compulsion to steal a pair of trainers? Ceasless marketing?

Comment number 406.
Richard
3 Minutes ago

"jefff1979" 403

True in an ideal world, but youngsters where there is high unemployment see no future from a very early age, they give up and are given up on - they feel they have nothing to lose. They probably shouldn't, but if the government keeps kicking them while getting away with being caught with their hands in the till the line gets blurred.

Comment number 407.
Chemical-Mix
5 Minutes ago

...Modern life, new freedoms, societal expectations and the absolute requirement to submit to a worker-wage-slave system has consequences. Youth described in the article don't see any difference between the perpetual misery of working 45 hours a week in a job they hate and; their current miserable situation of doing nothing and not caring. Come 2012 when the cuts hit, things could get much worse

Comment number 408.
jefff1979
4 Minutes ago

Richard:

That's in part my point. Why is it that the youngsters have to look to government for guidance. If there's one thing in politics that most people can agree on, it's that politicians are NOT good role models.

Where are the parents to explain these things? It's as if they are forever doomed because they are never going to get a wake-up call from politicians.

Comment number 409.
Richard
7 Minutes ago

"jefff1979

They can; however, start to demand more from those who live on the government's dole."

The riots were *not* about people on the dole, or any one age group. Many were employed. Ages run between 11 and late 30's.

That's what's being missed by most commentators, they comment solely based solely on their prejudices, and that's why they have no solutions, or understanding.

Comment number 410.
jefff1979
4 Minutes ago

Chemical-Mix:

The solution he mentioned is family. As he said, he wouldn't have done those things (rioting and the like) for fear of his parents not the police. But the current legal system stands against honest parents who try to discipline their kids. They can call and have their parents arrested.

The viability of families must again be realized, because current practices are not working.

Comment number 411.
Chemical-Mix
11 Minutes ago

And to top it off, it is beat into them that they will have to work longer, harder, save more with less payoff to fund the retirement of the previous generation, while putting up with less disposable income and; higher taxes to pay for the mistakes of a few bankers who by the way, proved to the youth you can get away indebting the Earth to the tune of $40trillion. I'd be demotivated and; lose faith too

Comment number 412.
jefff1979
10 Minutes ago

Chemical-Mix:

"Come 2012 when the cuts hit, things could get much worse"

Indeed. That's why government dependance is so dangerous. It's all based on the presupposition that those at the top are going to make the right decisions. When they don't you are all the more at their mercy.

That is why I take issue with an overbearing government support structure. When it falls it takes even more down...

Comment number 413.
Richard
11 Minutes ago

"jefff1979" 408

I don't think it's government they look too, it's society. The riots weren't about the unemployed, but about the disaffected. Thatcher created an underclass, and the current underclass is often second generation. The poverty creates dysfunctional families (many causes, poverty always has), and so the circle is complete - they join a gang that becomes their 'family'.

Comment number 414.
Richard
7 Minutes ago

"jefff1979
That's why government dependance is so dangerous. "

But what is the alternative?

Comment number 415.
Chemical-Mix
6 Minutes ago

Jeff:
"That's why government dependance is so dangerous"

The problem is that this is almost required to a great extent. In a profit-based model, if there is no profit in a benevolent, system of looking after the lower rungs of society, it won't happen. And with just under 500k job vacancies with 2.45million unemployed, approx 80% of those on the dole literally have no choice in the matter.

Comment number 416.
peter Baston
6 Minutes ago

Super-cop might want to remember that the LAPD insignia and credo says " To Protect and Serve " and not " To Scare the crap out off "

Any beat cop will tell you that when you lose the respect of the people on your beat that's where the rot starts and the riot begins

Respect is totally different to fear or are we going to study Syrians crowd control and bring in Tanks and Warships

Comment number 417.
jefff1979
14th August 2011 - 19:12

Chemical-Mix:

"The problem is is that this is almost required to a great extent."

It is, in a sense, required. That was done by design, that is my point. It's not like the politicians did this with the idea that these people would actually be happy. The politicians created this underclass to insure votes. Now that it's in motion, it will be up to individuals and families to get out.

Comment number 418.
Chemical-Mix
14th August 2011 - 19:19

@417.jefff1979
"it will be up to individuals and families to get out"

Very chilling thought. So along with everything else that poverty and opportunity disequilibrium throws at these people, they are also faced with societal abandonment at the most fundamental level. If they think their is no hope, perhaps they believe there is nothing to lose by opportunistically taking what they can...

Comment number 419.
Richard
14th August 2011 - 19:22

"jefff1979" 417

I think this where our two societies start to diverge. We talk about keeping the rich rich, whereas you talk about votes. It might amount to the same thing, but up to the mid 80's we had true left vs. right (we now have 2 x centre right). We lost 100% employment in the late 60s and dealt with it, I don't think the US has realised that it has yet to address that issue.

I can only hope that Richard is wrong.

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